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No such thing

Tue Sep 22, 2015 10:37 pm

There are no free markets.
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Re: No such thing

Wed Sep 23, 2015 1:51 am

Isn't Bitcoin in the process of birthing one now?

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Re: No such thing

Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:45 am

There are no free markets.
Are you going to come with any argument or explanation? Because right now I can say "there are free markets" and be equally right since you didn't try to prove your statement at all...

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Re: No such thing

Wed Sep 23, 2015 10:23 am

There are no free markets.
there are.

but a majority are not.

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Re: No such thing

Wed Sep 23, 2015 7:23 pm

It is an oxymoron. You can't have freedom and simultaneously be bound by the artificial rules of a market. It is self contradicting.
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Re: No such thing

Tue Sep 29, 2015 12:43 pm

It is an oxymoron. You can't have freedom and simultaneously be bound by the artificial rules of a market. It is self contradicting.
Can you give an example of the artificial rules you are talking about? I want to understand what you mean.

Thanks

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Re: No such thing

Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:11 am

http://www.salon.com/2015/09/29/robert_ ... t_partner/

Robert Reich: There’s no such thing as a “free market”
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Re: No such thing

Wed Sep 30, 2015 12:12 am

It is an oxymoron. You can't have freedom and simultaneously be bound by the artificial rules of a market. It is self contradicting.
Can you give an example of the artificial rules you are talking about? I want to understand what you mean.

Thanks
Any arbitrary rule that market participants agree to follow.
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Re: No such thing

Wed Sep 30, 2015 1:18 am


Can you give an example of the artificial rules you are talking about? I want to understand what you mean.

Thanks
Any arbitrary rule that market participants agree to follow.
I was hoping for a specific example but I will still try to address your point. In what I envision to be a true "free market" there are no arbitrary rules, only rules set and agreed upon by the two (or more) parties involved in the exchange. As I see it, once third parties such as the government get involved, that's where the arbitrary rules begin rear their ugly head. If I were to start a business selling widgets for $10,000 each, as long as there is no fraud involved, it should be as simple as "Do you accept my price and terms of sale? Yes? OK, sold!"'. In my opinion, we would see a massive increase in home businesses, self employment, entrepreneurship and a massive drop in "unemployment" in a free market like I described. However, to sell my widgets, there are TONS of arbitrary rules I would have to abide by in today's non-free market systems around the world due to government regulations, licensing, laws, edicts, statutes, import/export rules and the list goes on. I know I have PLENTY of ideas for businesses but am personally afraid to pursue any of them for fear of running afoul of the state's arbitrary rules that they impose on me and my would be customer, without our consent. People who wish to merely sell bitcoin to another person, at least here in the US and particularly NYC, have hundreds of pages of arbitrary rules they are forced to follow, as one example.

Unfortunately, I think you are mostly correct if you mean that free markets do not exist today and it is in great part due to threats from governments if you violate their arbitrary rules. They COULD, and in my opinion, SHOULD, exist though. Advocates of a true free market want the same thing you are talking about, eliminating those arbitrary rules imposed by a third party. When someone deals with their friends, I consider that darned close to, if not a free market. "Want to buy my old couch? 50 bucks. Done." "Will you help me change my tire? I'll buy you dinner next week to repay you. Done." However if I want to start a business selling used couches or changing tires for dinners, I literally can't even imagine all of the arbitrary hoops and rules that would be imposed on me.

If I have missed your point, please let me know. I'm curious about your opinion on what I've thrown out there :)

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Re: No such thing

Wed Sep 30, 2015 2:08 am


Any arbitrary rule that market participants agree to follow.
I was hoping for a specific example but I will still try to address your point. In what I envision to be a true "free market" there are no arbitrary rules, only rules set and agreed upon by the two (or more) parties involved in the exchange. As I see it, once third parties such as the government get involved, that's where the arbitrary rules begin rear their ugly head. If I were to start a business selling widgets for $10,000 each, as long as there is no fraud involved, it should be as simple as "Do you accept my price and terms of sale? Yes? OK, sold!"'. In my opinion, we would see a massive increase in home businesses, self employment, entrepreneurship and a massive drop in "unemployment" in a free market like I described. However, to sell my widgets, there are TONS of arbitrary rules I would have to abide by in today's non-free market systems around the world due to government regulations, licensing, laws, edicts, statutes, import/export rules and the list goes on. I know I have PLENTY of ideas for businesses but am personally afraid to pursue any of them for fear of running afoul of the state's arbitrary rules that they impose on me and my would be customer, without our consent. People who wish to merely sell bitcoin to another person, at least here in the US and particularly NYC, have hundreds of pages of arbitrary rules they are forced to follow, as one example.

Unfortunately, I think you are mostly correct if you mean that free markets do not exist today and it is in great part due to threats from governments if you violate their arbitrary rules. They COULD, and in my opinion, SHOULD, exist though. Advocates of a true free market want the same thing you are talking about, eliminating those arbitrary rules imposed by a third party. When someone deals with their friends, I consider that darned close to, if not a free market. "Want to buy my old couch? 50 bucks. Done." "Will you help me change my tire? I'll buy you dinner next week to repay you. Done." However if I want to start a business selling used couches or changing tires for dinners, I literally can't even imagine all of the arbitrary hoops and rules that would be imposed on me.

If I have missed your point, please let me know. I'm curious about your opinion on what I've thrown out there :)
Even in your simple example, there is a third party. What is a dollar? Who said it is worth anything?
Bitcoin combines money, the wrongest thing in the world, with software, the easiest thing in the world to get wrong.
Please visit www.thezeitgeistmovement.com and www.thevenusproject.com.

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Re: No such thing

Wed Sep 30, 2015 3:58 am

Even in your simple example, there is a third party. What is a dollar? Who said it is worth anything?
In a free market, the same party who chooses to accept dollars for their goods or services is the one "saying they are worth something" to them. Otherwise they would likely not be willing to trade their good/service (value) for them. They would be free to say "dollars are valueless to me and I only accept live chickens for the value I'm offering". That is of course in a theoretical free market in which a third party (typically government) isn't forcing you to accept dollars against your will or telling you how many of them you have to trade your good/service for (price fixing). The buyer also gets to decide if he values the dollars in his pocket more or less that the product or service he wants. A third party may have printed the dollars but only the two parties decide between themselves IF they have value and then what the value of them is in relation to the product being offered (price negotiation).

My second example, exchanging a tire change for a dinner, did not include dollars at all, by the way. I'm always open to learning that I am wrong about something but I still maintain that both examples include only two parties.

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Re: No such thing

Wed Sep 30, 2015 6:06 am

A market cannot exist without the state it creates to protect itself from reality. The imposition of artificial scarcity ensures that conflict and violence emerge and that the market will fail without the imposition of order from a third party.
Bitcoin combines money, the wrongest thing in the world, with software, the easiest thing in the world to get wrong.
Please visit www.thezeitgeistmovement.com and www.thevenusproject.com.

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