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bitkilo
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How will Unlimited safely be implemented?

Sun Mar 19, 2017 12:06 pm

Most that know me here would know that i am not a developer and far from an expert on the bitcoin code but what i am is a daily user of bitcoin because I believe strongly in what a decentralized currency like this can do for the world, well that and i no longer wish to support the debt based system we currently have with fiat currencies that is doing nothing to help the world.

As an everyday bitcoin user i do run into some problems with transactions sometimes taking a little longer than usual to confirm but as long as i have calculated the fee correctly and the network isn't being hit with a spam attack i would say 95% of my transactions receive the first confirmation within 30min max, most within 10min.
One thing i have noticed is that fees have gone up quite a bit in the last couple of years, when once a fee of $0.05 was enough to get my single input tx into the next block now it's more like $0.50 and fingers crossed it makes the next block, still cheap but if fees keep rising this fast people like me will be priced out of the maker soon enough.
Keep in mind that most transactions i send are small with only a couple of inputs max, i hear from businesses that accept bitcoin payments that the fees to transfer all those small payments they receive throughout the fortnight to another address can cost tens of dollars now!

So for someone like myself who uses bitcoin just about daily but is not a bitcoin expert the scaling debate can be a nightmare to navigate, especially when censorship on some forums is thrown into the mix.
I like Bitcoin Unlimited as a scaling solution, from what i have read it seems to be the bitcoin i have grown to love, the team has the best interest of bitcoiners at heart but i just haven't yet read anything that convinces me enough that the Unlimited hardfork can be safely implemented, i know it has been done before but that was years ago when the user base was a lot smaller and less at stake.

On the surface at least SegWit seems less scary to implement with less for the average user to do other than make sure the wallet they are using has upgraded what they need to but I'm sure it has it's own downsides that people will point out to me.

So what i need is some links or answers to what plans Bitcoin Unlimited has to safely implement a hard fork on the network.
And by safely i mean so that there is no chance of an average user like myself loosing coins or faith in bitcoin.
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Re: How will Unlimited safely be implemented?

Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:09 pm

I'm scared of what happens after the fork as well. It will either be like ETH and ETH classic, or reversed where most miners stays with core and that chains take precedent. It's somewhat scary. I also don't even want to think about what happens to the price after the fork, months of progress are going to be erased.
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Re: How will Unlimited safely be implemented?

Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:01 am

I'm scared of what happens after the fork as well. It will either be like ETH and ETH classic, or reversed where most miners stays with core and that chains take precedent. It's somewhat scary. I also don't even want to think about what happens to the price after the fork, months of progress are going to be erased.
I think perhaps Bitcoin Unlimited just will fork as an altcoin and bitcoin as it is will not change at all(without counting smaller volumes as some people start buying BU tokens.) But it will only be a few percentage of the marketcap i think.. Bitcoin Core will have a big dominance i value anyway, since that is the token where we have consusnes between people/traders. Most exchanges seems like only will be dealing Bitcoin Core as bitcoin.. And most investors wont change to a new coin. A lot of altcoins is a proof of that..

And it should be easy to make an fix for this without changing the protocols.. Think thank? Ideas? Anyone? ;)

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Re: How will Unlimited safely be implemented?

Mon Mar 20, 2017 3:04 am

I'm scared of what happens after the fork as well. It will either be like ETH and ETH classic, or reversed where most miners stays with core and that chains take precedent. It's somewhat scary. I also don't even want to think about what happens to the price after the fork, months of progress are going to be erased.
I think perhaps Bitcoin Unlimited just will fork as an altcoin and bitcoin as it is will not change at all(without counting smaller volumes as some people start buying BU tokens.) But it will only be a few percentage of the marketcap i think.. Bitcoin Core will have a big dominance i value anyway, since that is the token where we have consusnes between people/traders. Most exchanges seems like only will be dealing Bitcoin Core as bitcoin.. And most investors wont change to a new coin. A lot of altcoins is a proof of that..

And it should be easy to make an fix for this without changing the protocols.. Think thank? Ideas? Anyone? ;)
Exchanges will list both coins if there is a split: https://news.bitcoin.com/popular-bitcoi ... ency-plan/

What i want to know is what are the plans to safely implement a hard fork onto the network.
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Re: How will Unlimited safely be implemented?

Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:08 pm

I have been thinking, perhaps somehow it is possible to add a percentage of the amount transacted and calculate the fee out of it.. So if you transfer 10usd in btc, it will still be e.g 0.1USD(1%' fee) for median transaction. 2% for fast and so on? Because now the price are measured and set in satoshis, when bitcoins value in increasing. So the fee's for the same type of transaction on the network is more expensive.. This way micropayments will not be a problem, and people dont have to think so much!

And perhaps miners should hav their own tokens for speeding transactions trough their offchain "3rd party blockchain"

Did you understand my point? 1btc transaction will always cost 0.01btc, so if you transfer 1000usd and bitcoin value is doubled, it is still just 10usd, not 20 as it would be if is set in satoshis... Make sense?

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Re: How will Unlimited safely be implemented?

Mon Mar 20, 2017 7:10 pm

*But at the same time, if we think about bitcoin as digital gold. It should be as it is. Gold is not easy to send people. expensive as well! Then they can use less worth tokens to daily use. And bitcoin to save money.

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Re: How will Unlimited safely be implemented?

Mon Mar 20, 2017 8:23 pm

I have been thinking, perhaps somehow it is possible to add a percentage of the amount transacted and calculate the fee out of it.. So if you transfer 10usd in btc, it will still be e.g 0.1USD(1%' fee) for median transaction. 2% for fast and so on? Because now the price are measured and set in satoshis, when bitcoins value in increasing. So the fee's for the same type of transaction on the network is more expensive.. This way micropayments will not be a problem, and people dont have to think so much!

And perhaps miners should hav their own tokens for speeding transactions trough their offchain "3rd party blockchain"

Did you understand my point? 1btc transaction will always cost 0.01btc, so if you transfer 1000usd and bitcoin value is doubled, it is still just 10usd, not 20 as it would be if is set in satoshis... Make sense?
That's not how the blockchain works. The fee is based on how big your transaction is, because as many people here know, the blocks have a size cap.

The more inputs and/or outputs there are in your transaction, the largest it will be because naturally, you have to generate a signature for each input/output for the other Bitcoin nodes to confirm your transaction is legitimate. If we based it on size of the transaction, it would no longer be logical or as efficient, and one step closer to copying the current payment scheme and mindset used today.

Back to BitKilo's question...

BU does have some basic features built in to prevent a hard fork, but many people, including me, don't feel like they are sufficient.

For example, one method of protection is BU's adoption rule. Any clients running BU will only signal that they are running Bitcoin Unlimited, but still run identical to a Core node until they notice that 75% of the nodes in the network (Not sure if it was 75%, or something like 7 our of 10 blocks in a row are mined as Bitcoin Unlimited blocks) are also signalling for a change to BU. Only then would they all change at the same time. 75% consensus is not enough. Let's say 75% of the market moves to Bitcoin Unlimited, so it has 75% of the Bitcoin market share. Sure, most of the remaining 25% will move to the coin with the larger market share and longer blockchain, but 25% is a huge amount of users, and will cause uncertainty on both sides. Miners, especially, might quickly mine on Bitcoin Core when the hashrate is low and then people might follow.

BU should follow a segwit-like rule of 95%. That will be much safer.
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